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Facts, beliefs and public debate

February 26, 2014

To the editor: In a letter published in the Independent on Feb 19, John Frerich wrote that he was offended by an editorial published in the Feb 15-16 edition of the Independent....

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(51)

Really

Feb-27-14 4:45 AM

Bravo Mr. Skar

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NoBleedingHeartHere

Feb-27-14 8:46 AM

Back to square one. Embrace the facts that support your beliefs. Ignore the facts that refute your beliefs. Mr. Skar is no different. There is a preponderence of data available which will effectively dilute any "facts" supporting man caused climate change. Defer to any reasonable geologist. they will relate evidence of runaway greenhouse effects and globally effected ice ages which man had no part in. Yet Mother Earth survived and is alive and well. Mr. Skar spouts objectivity, only when it supports man caused climate change. The "facts" are out there. Include them all.

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blasphemer

Feb-27-14 9:07 AM

Ignorance is bliss eh NBHH?

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NoBleedingHeartHere

Feb-27-14 9:47 AM

Belligerence is typical for you, eh blasphemer?

Can I assume then that you will continue to consider only half the "facts"? That's too bad, because while you think your so dang smart, you don't even realize that it's possible for you to be a whole lot smarter.

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hartman75

Feb-27-14 10:17 AM

"Defer to any reasonable geologist. they will relate evidence of runaway greenhouse effects and globally effected ice ages which man had no part in."

Thats very true NBHH. So what geological events caused the "runaway greenhouse gas effects" man had no part in. Are those geological events occurring now? If not then what other events could be related to climate change?

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NoBleedingHeartHere

Feb-27-14 10:40 AM

Thanks for the question, hartmann. The one constant in all of this is that nature is cyclic. Warmer than "average" (if there is such a thing)winters or summers, colder than "average" winters or summers. Some are extreme as in the case of Snowball Earth, others are small fluctuations in temperature levels, as seems to be the case at present. Cyclic nonetheless. There is a theory among some scientists that we are at present in the waning stages of the last (current) ice age. When the polar caps recede significantly, a new ice age will be triggered. This, in cyclic prgression, is inevitable. Man could accelerate the process, but the human impact would be relatively insignificant. It will happen because the event will be part of the cycle which has always existed in nature. It is this body of evidence that makes the most sense to me. Man has a slight effect on modern climate, but not enough to change the inevitable with any significance.

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WW07

Feb-27-14 12:08 PM

"Are those geological events occurring now? If not then what other events could be related to climate change?"

Only those with determination to know the truth know anything about anything that is occurring now since the media are loathe to go off script.

This letter was a joke. I'm not talking about the writer's lame attempts to inject jocularity with heavy-handed put downs.

Wow. 150 years of evolution. That's dope!

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bystander

Feb-27-14 1:01 PM

Awesome letter!

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NoBleedingHeartHere

Feb-27-14 1:36 PM

hartmann, as to what globally effecting events cause the climate change past, present (and future), this same cadre of scientists and geologists point to volcanic activity, release of methane through fissures on the ocean floor, fluctuations in ocean temperature, sunspot activity, even asteroid impacts. With the exception of asteroid impact, all of these phenomenon are likely to be the cause of climate change at present, rendering man's impact insignificant by comparison.

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WW07

Feb-27-14 2:26 PM

First, the term homophobe is offensive. It describes no real condition. It is merely pejorative. In a just world this commentary forum would replace it with *********.

Second, the public is free to debate. That is why we are the public. It is nonsense to profess such a reverence for facts above beliefs. Facts are often obnoxious and believers are just as often admirable. Facts are not automatically good bases for public policy. Gravity is a fact. We don't make policy that everyone should remain at ground level while we fight gravity.

Climate is what you expect. Weather is what you get. Making policy to fight climate change based on computer models 114 of 117 of which failed twenty years ago to correctly (or remotely closely), twenty years ago, predict the weather we have had this century is the very definition of failed policy.

Skar's letter is a verbose response to statements no one made. It is a joke.

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hartman75

Feb-27-14 2:49 PM

I would agree NBHH, studies reveal weather patterns are cyclical. It also appears that raising or lowering temperatures, even just a few degrees, has a major impact on our climate. Changes in our climate have the potential to alter how & where we live and grow food. Man’s presence has significantly affected the biological make-up of our earth in a relatively short time. You say our impact is insignificant yet we have developed the means of destroying what took millions of years to create. I agree with you that some of the climate change we are experiencing is related to cyclical weather patterns however, that should not rule out the likelihood that human activity is contributing to and exacerbating global warming or climate change in general. IMO, taking steps to control the pollution released into our atmosphere now will, undoubtedly, benefit us in the future. It would seem to be the best option we have since doing nothing leaves us with no option.

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WW07

Feb-27-14 2:50 PM

In fact, NBHH, here are numbers in support of your comment:

There are about 1,500 active volcanos worldwide with the majority on the Pacific “ring of fire.” Some fifty of these erupt every year, An estimated 500 million people worldwide live near active volcanoes.

While environmentalists are forever blathering about carbon dioxide (C02) emissions from cars, plants that produce electricity, and all forms of manufacturing, volcanos produce from 145 million to 255 million short tons of CO2 every year.

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NoBleedingHeartHere

Feb-27-14 4:07 PM

On a "normal" day, constantly at each other's throats, now agreeing on a salient point! This is something I thought I would never see! Thanks for giving this a shot, hartmann. I will concede this. Taking some extra care of our planet, reining in the unecessarily destructive practices, is never going to be a bad thing. I will need to draw the line however at sacrificing man's well being. I know a sweet little lady on the East coast who, because of "environmental safeguards" (yes, combined with corporate greed), is forced to pay prohibitively to heat her dwelling. She is not alone in that. Both you and I feel the effects, though not as dire. There is a middle point where the U.S. can improve the economy, be independent of foreign oil, be environmentally conscious, and allow the "sweet little ladies" to be less burdened. We should be looking for that. Our arguing and name calling is a microcosm of whats wrong at the national level. So how could we get the &

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NoBleedingHeartHere

Feb-27-14 4:08 PM

So how could we get the "big boys" to stop?

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NoBleedingHeartHere

Feb-27-14 5:39 PM

WW07, that statistic addresses the pollutants that expel in combination with ash. What must be understood is that an active volcano is releasing toxic pollutants and greenhouse gases into the atmosphere 24/7 for as long as it is classified as active. The ash cloud is the proverbial "tip of the iceberg". Most of what a volcano releases is invisible. Case in point, the methane released from fissures on the ocean floor is essentially "volcanic activity". This release is so vast that it is practically impossible to calculate. This methane is in the mix that is expelled from surface volcanoes as well. Is there any wonder why Earth's history is profuse with runaway greenhouse events and cataclysmic ice ages?

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hartman75

Feb-27-14 5:54 PM

“It is nonsense to profess such a reverence for facts above beliefs. Facts are often obnoxious and believers are just as often admirable.”

Too funny, WW07. Let me guess, facts interfere with your beliefs? You know, some once believed the earth was flat. Do you know how it was determined the earth was not flat, WW07? For the most part, by observing and studying nature. Wow, what a concept! Of course, there were many who doubted therefore, acceptance of the “round earth” theory first had to be proven by some very courageous individuals. Imagine, even back then some individuals just could not accept the factual evidence which proved the earth is not flat.

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hartman75

Feb-27-14 5:56 PM

Wait WW07…now you’re claiming the fact volcano's are erupting; THAT is contributing to climate change? I thought you said facts were nonsense. Well here is another fact. This one is from the USGS, “On average, human activities put out in just three to five days, the equivalent amount of carbon dioxide that volcanoes produce globally each year.”

Seems to me WW07, if you accept NBHH’s contention volcano activity is contributing to climate change, then human activates must also contribute to climate change! Yes, facts are obnoxious, especially when they conflict with your beliefs.

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hartman75

Feb-27-14 6:01 PM

"volcanos produce from 145 million to 255 million short tons of CO2 every year."

BTW WW07, I neglected to thank you for the statistics which put in perspective the enormous levels of CO2 generated by human activity.

I can’t wait to see what comes next WW07 & NBHH, keep those posts coming.

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rangeral

Feb-27-14 6:02 PM

The Earth has been cooling since the Miocene geologic age. It is not a straight line down and there have been wide fluctuations over millions of years. During the Miocene, millions of species developed and became extinct, mostly due to climate change. Check out a good geology book on the Miocene, and while you are at it, read up on the Ice Age.

I have always said that we should deal with pollution; while it may have little effect on climate change, it creates many poisons that affect all living things.

Now let's take the politics and psuedo-science out of the picture.

I do so tire of those who want us to do as they say, not as they do. Al Gore would be the poster child for that. A better role model would be Ed Begley.

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WW07

Feb-27-14 6:46 PM

FYI-Committee for a Constructive Tommorrow

HT, National Anxiety Center

Commenting on the proposed carbon pollution standards for new power plants, Bonner R.Cohen, PhD, a CFACT Senior Policy Analyst laid out the reasons why MATS has no basis whatever in science.

Any regulation seeking to limit the amount of carbon dioxide (CO2) in the Earth’s atmosphere deliberately and deceptively ignores facts that anyone can understand. Bonner spelled out the basic scientific facts, but it is essential to keep in mind that CO2 is essential to all life on Earth, providing the “food” that all vegetation depends.

"Current concentrations of CO2 in the atmosphere are 400 parts per million (ppm). Human activities in all their forms account for 4% of that total. The United States is responsible for 3% of that 4%, all the rest of the CO2 in the atmosphere (96% of the total) comes from purely natural causes, such as volcanoes, undersea venting, animal fluctuation, etc.,” said Cohen.

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WW07

Feb-27-14 6:51 PM

FYI- MATS Mercury and Air Toxics Standards

“The total U.S. contribution to atmospheric CO2 is one tenth of 1% or 00.1%. This 0.01% includes the CO2 that is emitted every time one of the approximately 315 million Americans opens his or her mouth to speak, cry, or engage in any verbal activity.” There are seven billion people on Earth contributing CO2 just by exhaling.

“The contribution of coal-fired plants to the U.S., much less global CO2 emissions, is so miniscule that it cannot be measured with any degree of accuracy. And the contribution of those entities targeted by the EPA to the Earth’s climate also cannot be measured. Thus the EPA has absolutely no way of saying how its proposed regulations will affect the climate.”

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WW07

Feb-27-14 6:55 PM

Sorry, Hart Man. It is the internet. Otherwise I could just snap my fingers to make you bark. AND I DO like to entertain myself.

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NoBleedingHeartHere

Feb-27-14 7:24 PM

hartmann, in a later post, you implied that volcanic activity has no effect on "climate change". That implication was nestled in there with derisive comments about WW07 and me. One of your previous posts has you acknowledging the negative effects of volcanic activity. Perhaps you could explain that one? Or not.

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Really

Feb-28-14 1:16 AM

WW07, Volcanos produce CO2 so we should produce as much as we want. Great logic John. Car accidents kill thousands every year so when you see someone cross the street, run em over! Could you possibly be anymore pompous.

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Really

Feb-28-14 1:23 AM

AL, Hold the phone! Are you saying the Earth is not just 6,000 years old? Can you tell your dentist friend?

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